From: traveller@mpgn.comtraveller@mpgn.com
Subject:  TRAVELLER digest 242
To: Kagehira
From: traveller@mpgn.com
Sender: traveller@mpgn.com
Reply-to: traveller@mpgn.com
To: traveller@mpgn.com (Multiple recipients of list)

3Q			    TRAVELLER Digest 242

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Review: Aliens of the Rim - Hiver and Ithklur	by Mark Clark <markc@brahms.udel.edu>
  2) Re: RCES Uniforms	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
  3) Re: TRAVELLER digest 241	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
  4) Domain and Zhodani ( primarily )	by "James M. Kelleher" <kelleher@holonet.net>
  5) Plot questions	by "Eric B. Smith" <doc@eznet.com>
  6) Get it together	by "Eric B. Smith" <doc@eznet.com>
  7) The Canonical Universe	by dberry@np1.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 19:09:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Clark <markc@brahms.udel.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Review: Aliens of the Rim - Hiver and Ithklur
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950401071118.4389A-100000@brahms.udel.edu>

Well, I got my copy of H&I, and I thought I'd say a few words about it.  
I'm pretty sure most of the folks on this list are going to buy it 
regardless of what I say in my review, but i thought I'd say a few 
things, if only to see if we can get some discussion going.

First, the big question: is it worth the money?  As much as it pains this 
Traveller fan, the answer is "probably not."  There are a couple of 
reasons for my opinion, and I'll discuss the specifics in a minute, but 
the central objection I have has more to do with style than with 
substance.  What I mean by that is the presentation method selected is 
less than useful for gaming purposes, whatever the merits it has as a 
literary device.

(warning: excursion into literary theory follows - search for ***** to skip)

*******************************************************************

For the purposes of my arguement, I divide the presentation of 
roleplaying material into three catagories, associated with three ways of 
dealing with a text:

1) Classic - "There is one text, and the text is true"  
	In this view, the text is the source of truth and admits of only one 
interpretation.  In much the same way that a fundamentalist views the bible 
as the literal truth, the GM and players view the world description as 
literally true.
	This is the style of the earliest roleplaying games, like D&D,
Classic Traveller, etc.  There is one point of view, the game universe is
described from that point of view, and there is no abiguity.  Most
roleplaying games continue to follow this style of presentation.
	What this means for the consumer is that what is described is 
what is really going on.  In GoodOldDee'nDee, Orcs are evil, they are 
always evil, and you should kill them because they are evil.  In Classic 
Traveller, the Zho are evil plotting mindstealers, they always steal your 
mind, and you should kill them because they are evil.

2) Modern: "There are multiple texts, each with its own truth"
	In this point of view, texts do not have independent truths, but 
only have authors, who infuse their points of view into the texts they 
create.  This attitude has its origins in the study of history in the 
19th century and the development of biblical criticism around the same 
time.  Biblical scholars, for example, began to use textual criticism to 
divide up the bible into parts written by those who knew Jesus, parts 
written later, parts added to support later changes in church teaching, 
and so on.
	Fewer roleplaying games use this technique, but it's out there.  
Some of the cyberpunk style games use marginal comments to point out the 
errors in official press accounts or library data, for example.  Done 
well, the technique conveys a sense of how different groups differ from 
one another and why they are at odds.
	In prctice, this can cause a shift in mindset in the course of 
play.  MegaTraveller, as described by DGP, was in a sense the 
transformation of Traveller from a "Classic" to a "Modern" point of 
view.  This is most clearly seen in the two alien modules DGP produced, 
where the racial descriptions are done both from the point of view of the 
race itself, in contrast of the alien modules from Classic Traveller, 
where the description is presented as being "objective."  Here, the Zho 
aren't evil, they're just misunderstood, because the Imperium made us 
think they were evil, but we can kill them anyway and blame it on the 
programming.

3) Post-Modern: "There are multiple texts, none of which are true"
	Perhaps eventually we'll get a better word than post-modern (talk 
about a weird term), but until we do I'll use it to signify the current 
literary attempt to reduce literature to an undiferentiated mass, where 
all texts have the same value, which, in short, is nothing.  In 
post-modern thought, there is no "truth," only the interaction of the 
reader and the text, the text acting on the mind of the reader to create 
some state in the readers mind.
	This is the most rare sort of roleplaying product approuch, 
though one could place many White Wolf products (Vampire, Werewolf, 
etc.), where the creation of atmosphere is of central importance - lots 
of illustrations, strange typefaces, etc.  Just compare the graphic style 
of White Wolf products with the typical GURPS sourcebook if you want to 
see what I mean.
	The Hivers and Ithklur sourcebook falls in this third catagory.  
The description of the Hiver is clearly intended to create a sense of 
paranoid confusion within the reader, as it presents multiple points of 
view, all of which are contradictory.  Moreover, in the segment on 
playing and refereeing the Hiver (pages 44 and 45), no attempt is made 
to confirm or deny the rumors presented in the text.  Essentially, the 
authors take the position that the reader should "take the various 
'facts' and think about them."  
	This may be fine for a work of fiction, where engaging and
chalenging readers is an appropriate goal, but when I buy a roleplaying
product I like my aliens defined and outlined, thank you very much.  H&I 
is written with a high degree of ambiguity and an intention that the 
reader play a large role in interpretation.  Frankly, I think this lets 
down most gamers, by failing to provide concrete details to plan a 
campaign around.

**************************************************************

Well, enough ranting.  What's actually in this thing?  Well, it's 92 
pages long, half devoted to Hiver, 40% to Ithklur, and the remaining 10% 
for designers notes, forms and charts, plus yet another advert for 
Vampire Fleets.

The sections on each race include history, current social structure, and 
career generation for Hiver and Ithklur PCs and NPCs.  The Hiver section 
contains no real surprises for those who have read the Classic Traveller 
module on Hiver - some sections seem to be almost verbatim transcriptions 
from the earlier material, though I didn't actually try to compare things 
line by line.  Those who have been following the Traveller News Service 
in Challenge will be happy to know that the "Corn Dog" mystery is finally 
solved - they're a copy of Terran corn dogs, made from sea slugs (yum!).

The only major new element introduced is the introduction of psionic 
Hivers.  They are rare (one in one million), and their psionic power is 
low grade.  It manifests itself through "Dreams," brought about by the 
cumulative thoughts of those around them.  These dreams have predictive 
power, and can be used as plot devices (imagine that!).  As a side note, 
this explains where that passage that begins "I had a dream.  A dream of 
a wood, old beyond imagining, thick with deep fertility..." and goes on 
to describe the old forest with rotting trees and a big fire and all that 
stuff.  GDW must like this dream - I think this is the third time they've 
published it (Survival Margin, p. 67, and somewhere else).  I had thought 
this was something from one of Professor Ililek Kuligaan's books, but it 
turns out to be a dream by one of these psionic Hivers.  Fancy that.

The Ithklur stuff is essentially all original, and very unsatisfying.  
The Ithklur seem like the Three Stooges doing Monty Python routines with 
guns.  Stupid, that's what I think.  There are a whole series of jokes 
based on bad Saturday Night Live comedy routines and obscure references 
to American history (yes, Dave, I know what "54-40 or fight!" means, and 
it's a stupid joke).  I'll say it again - the Ithklur design is Stupid!!!

<no, Mark, go on, tell us what you _really_ think>

Oh, and there is a crabby designers note that says "Wel, we told you 
before that our aliens aren't just humans in rubber suits, but heah, we 
were kidding, they really are just humans in rubber suits - fooled you!"  
This from the company that brought us 2300AD, the game with the best damn 
alien aliens ever in a roleplaying game.  Somebody should just slap these 
guys for geting all caught up in post-modern literary theory and angst.  
They're probably just made because they didn't think up Magic: the 
Gathering of All Disposable Income.

Anyway, that's what I think.  I'd be interested to hear what you guys 
think, once you read your copies of H&I.

Mark Clark


Oh, one last thing - there's a reference on page 57 of H&I to a Ithklur 
prisoner who was tortured and then _EATEN_ by K'Kree.  How did this get 
past the editors?  Or maybe the Ithklur will turn out to be Berliners, in 
the same way as President Kennedy (jelly doughnut, anyone?).



------------------------------

Date: 01 Apr 1995 23:48:16 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: RCES Uniforms
Message-ID: <57602014.2253376@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca>

I've got RCES Equipment Guide, but still can't figure out the rank insignia.  

I mean, I think that the horizontal bars in the battle dress shouder plates
indicate rank, and presumably the more bars the higher the rank, but what
about the little vertical bars?

All of which is fairly trivial, and will doubtless be officially written up
some time.  I just didn't want to have to repaint figures when I did a RCES
Marine platoon.

------------------------------

Date: 01 Apr 1995 23:42:28 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 241
Message-ID: <927137791.2253282@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca>

>Okay. Let's summarize: Biologists hate Traveller's biology rules;
>Astronomers gripe that Traveller's maps are two-dimensional and therefor
>have little or no known relevance to true astrography; Physicists can't
>stand Traveller's FTL theories - they're impossible at best; And computer
>scientists rip Traveller's computer rules - including and often in
>particular Virus.
>
>Geeez. You'd think Traveller was a *game* or something... :-)

Muskrat, you've got it.  My point precisely.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Apr 95 22:27:16 PST
From: "James M. Kelleher" <kelleher@holonet.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (Traveller posts)
Subject: Domain and Zhodani ( primarily )
Message-ID: <199504020627.WAA03540@holonet.net>

( Uncloaking... Click :-) )

Oh GOOD a flame war averted, thanks guys!

On the VIRUS...
As several people commented and can't be said often enough...
IT'S a GAME!
We are playing in circa 1122 and the Virus is several exciting years
ahead for us, but since Jim and I feel that it is an interesting plot
device ( for all of it's weaknessess [ but then it is the 57th cntry. ]
:-) ).

On the Zhodani question...

Well the answer as to why they didn't absorb the Domain is political and
echonamic, I'm sure that there are " right " wingers who want to absorb
the Domain, and some " left " wingers who want to open up all the
borders to the Domain. The large group in the " Middle ", realize that to
attempt to absorb the Domain would not be feasable, Yes; it could be
done, but the former Impearials would fight it to the last Sophant...
and the cost! the casuilty rate, the echonomic devistation that the
Consulate would have to recover from only to conquer a rebelious domain
nearly a third the size of the Consulate itself.
It is not feasable.
Much better to trade and slowly gain the trust and echonomic upper hand.
Besides with the leagalization of Psi, the Domain will finally become
more like the Consolate, which is the perfect government; isn't it? :-)

Besides there was a vision of the 8th core expidition, so we MUST take
care of that before we absorb the Domain or anything else. ;-)
( In my version of the history there where some other visions, involving
some characters and Zhodani, but that is another story ).

I have some similier feelings about the " Primordials " that James
Kundert, ( Hi jim ). has but with some modification I could see using
them, or any other Forerunner ( tm, Andre Norton, but I love the term,
so I use it! ), race, some of the characters have run into a remainder
of such a people ( they did not know it and didn't guess. care to take a
shot at now jim ? :-) ). I feel that anything that keeps the story
interesting is good.

I do have some ideas for a "Regancy" romance... no that's not it :-),
game on the 8th core expidition there are some regancy scouts and some
others from the Domain... could be great fun. ( our group likes cultrual
interactions rather than combat, our present crew includes 6 ELETE
troops - People who fought in a strange space the Brood for 14 yrs...,
and we have had only two ( count 'em 2! ) fire fights ) Oh that's right
one pillow fight...
Regancy people aboard a Zhodani ship... could be fun.
How about this...
Recommision the Arrival Vengance for a ( covert ) mission to the old
Imperium... What would the Reces Captain of an Aurora class think if
faced with a ship of that size and tonnage?
How would he react if convinced that it is not the virus but people from
the old "Spinward Marches" come to find out what is here ?
"Questions of a thousand dreams, What you do and what you see"

I'd better wrap this up.
Oh here is another idea, Watch movies, cartoons ( ANime anyone? ) for
more ideas, I was going so spring one on our crew that I think jim would
have recognized, but I hope with enough twists to keep him guessing.
But they bypassed the world that best fit, Oh well I'll save it for
later, Maybe next DunDraCon.

Oh that brings another thing up after my car accident, I understand the
T:TNE (tm) Blunt Trama rules. I STILL hurt from the displaced ribs...

Ok Ok I'll go back to lurk, or was that to sleep, now :-)

C Ya
jim

( Cloaking on... Click )

P.S. Disclaimer all fo the mispellings are due to my own dislexia and lack
of caffine! besides who'd want these opinions anyway :-) j.

-- 
Remember: no matter where you go...
There you are...
B. Banzi

James M. Kelleher
kelleher@holonet.net


------------------------------

Date:          Sun, 2 Apr 1995 08:30:41 PDT
From: "Eric B. Smith" <doc@eznet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Plot questions
Message-ID: <9504021621.AB02703@foothills>

Jamison J. Long <LONG@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu> spake:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Let's assume that for a moment, there is a spatial rift, how would 
this affect jump travel??  Would the rift merely force you out of 
jump, or would it cause a severe Mis-jump.  Perhaps sending you 
half-way across known space.
-----------------------------------------------------------

The fact is that there is actually very little we know about the 
universe and the nature of space.  We do, however, know that 
space-time is not homogeneous.  There is nothing to suggest that a 
"spatial rift" does not exists.   I would suggest that, because of 
the sensitivity of jump field expansion to gravity wells (space-time 
bending), <hmm, can you jump from a lagrange point?> there may be 
some anomoly caused if a vessel in jump-space were to pass through a 
pocket (ripple, rift, gap?) in space-time.  If these anomolies were 
rare enough or spaced correctly, it would be an unusual occurance for 
a jumping vessel to meet up with one, giving the appropriate 
incidence of unexplained mis-jumps.

Now that I've justified your assumption, on to the rest --

A mis-jump would be the most acceptable (by the rules) consequence of 
a "ripple-strike" (or whatever you choose to call it).  But let's 
look into the possibility of discovering a stable, static ripple 
(gee, a wormhole? -- It's even been discussed by Stephen Hawking, 
though the would only exist for an instant at a time, not even long 
enough for light to pass through).

At a distance of 1 parsec from a low-pop, low-tech world, a stable 
ripple is discovered, charted and investigated.  When a ship jumps 
through the ripple on a specific vector, with certain jump 
parameters, the travellers find themselves in the center of the black 
curtain.  If the discoverers were the Zhodani . . . (begin sweating, 
towel-heads!)

Try that one on for size and see if it fits, folks.  Right now, I'm 
getting a migraine thinking about the possibilities.  What if 
Grandfather hears about it?

Eric
Eric B. Smith
doc@eznet.com

I must down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.

Sea Fever

------------------------------

Date:          Sun, 2 Apr 1995 08:13:17 PDT
From: "Eric B. Smith" <doc@eznet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Get it together
Message-ID: <9504021621.AA02703@foothills>

LURK MODE: OFF

A quick jump into the flame wars --

Although the VIRUS arguments will continue, I need to point out the 
obvious.  Most of us have been involved in games and campaigns that 
diverge from the official GDW plot lines.  We don't care, in those 
cases, where we are, why we're doing what we're doing or when the 
adventure takes place.  The game is supposed to be fun!  If you don't 
like the virus, sparklers, non-interbreeding of Aslani and Vargr, 
etc., then ignore these ideas in your world.  Marc Miller, if memory 
serves correctly, designed a game that could be set into any time 
period with any magic system you want.  That's the glory of the 
Traveller universe!

I've dealt with magic (in the traditional sense), run a Viet Nam 
scenario, played with tech-levels in the 20's and even did an old 
west theme.  There are no rules to the contrary.  But everybody needs 
to remember, also, that there is an ongoing plot and agenda for the 
main-stream game.  Like it or not.  And if not, make up your own 
system.  It fits the rules.  (Although I'll admit that GDW seems to 
have forgotten the flexibility of the game system somewhat.)

{I'm going to have to remember to return that razor to Occam.  -- If 
you understand that one, let the others in on it.}

Don't you think that it's time to get back to the problems at hand 
and start talking about the game rather than busy ourselves in 
flaming GDW, other contributors and Ideas that may, with a little 
thought, have some merit to the Traveller Universe?

Okay, all FLAME ON.  I have my "silver-suit" waiting.
Eric B. Smith
doc@eznet.com

I must down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.

Sea Fever

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Apr 95 11:33:37 EST
From: dberry@np1.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: The Canonical Universe
Message-ID: <9504021133.D8575rA@np1.com>


       All the discussion of the GDW "official" history and how some
players can't pull themselves away to do their own variants reminded of
a humorous encounter I had a few days ago.  I was at my local game
pusher buying Aliens of the Rim, and got into a discussion with the
clerk about my upcoming campaign.  I mentioned that I was going to use
Efate/Regina as a "cyberpunk" environment (high-tech, low law, etc.),
another customer in the store got extremely upset and began challenging
me on "where is THAT written? You're not REALLY playing Traveller!"
       Needless to say, both the clerk and I were struck speechless by
this display.
       I humbly offer my prostrate and pathetic form before Loren (He
Who Controls The Release Date)  Oh, forgive me great one, for playing an
unpublished variant and incurring you wrath.

Expecting the lightning bolt any minute...
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@np1.com
"All skill is for naught when an Angel pees in your Musket"

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 242
***************************
